I'm going to stick by the claim in my first question (below) that this is one of the most important books that we can read to start the 21st century. At the end of the 20th century Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky among others did a great job pointing out what was wrong and why, but Upski has taken the first step toward doing something about it. It's a simple step forward. I hope that he will find time to write the book he proposes like "100 Creative Soultion" a political equivilent to 50 Simple Things you can do to Save the World (like recycling.)

Anecdote: I turned my friend Cecil on to No More Prisons and he bought it for our frined Patrick who lives in Brooklyn. Patrick had taken a photograph of Upski's No More Prison grafitti before he had even heard about the book. Coincidence? Patrick was reading it at the laundromat, and somebody jacked it while he was putting his wet clothes into the dryer. I hope that whoever stole it takes the time to read it, before they sell it to a used book store or something. I'm certainly not advocating stealing the book, but there is a lesson here to keep it moving. Don't let No More Prisons it sit on the shelf, or unattended at the mat.
 

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Interview w/ William Upski Wimsatt  by Jimmy Jazz Jazz: I'll start by saying that you have enough good ideas in your book No More Prisons for 5 books, any one of which could be the most important way for someone who cares to begin the 21st century. How is it that you were able to transform yourself from a hip-hop grafiti writer to a saavy political activist? Or maybe there was no big transformation?  Upski: It's funny, I was just thinking that I didn't put ENOUGH good ideas in there and that what I really need to do is a book that's all creative solutions. Like 100 creative solutions or something like that. Of course the title would have to be better. But I don't know if people who read my shit now would read that. The thing about me is that I'm still half way in between where I was at when I was 18 and where I'm about to be at 30. So 14 year old kids are still feeling me. But I risk alienating a lot of older saavy political activists types who are the real ones I need to be talking to and learning from and fucking with -because I have the privilege to be taken seriously by them where many of my friends and peoples don't. And it tears me up inside because I'd rather be surrounding myself with young people who are out in the trenches and having a lot more fun. My friend Gita and I went out and painted No More Prisons. Net side! walks last night in Park Slope, Brooklyn. It was so fun. And we ran into this guy who I went to college with who's writing for the New York Times. And I'm sure he was slightly envious that we were out there writing on the sidewalks, enjoying ourselves, while he is leading this more normal adult life. At the same time, I was like, Fuck, I want to write for the New York Times and be taken seriously by the people who run the world. The is the price I pay for running around doing grassroots shit trying to save the world. My writing career has collapsed. But I know so much more about how to actually change the world now. It's incredible how much I've learned. I was so stupid before. I had no idea how to do anything. Now I'm beginning to get a clue.  Jazz: You say in No More Prisons that you have better things to write on the wall these days than your name?  Upski: In Bomb the Suburbs, I complained that graf writers waste their power by writing their names instead of messages that are linked to grassroots political efforts. I got tired of complaining and decided to do it myself. I've personally written No More Prisons on sidewalks in ten cities: NYC, Philly, Boston, DC, Chicago, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland. Other people have done the Bay Area, Milwaukee, Witchita, Savannah, Iowa Cita, Durham and probably a bunch of other places I don't know about yet. Already, it is the most successful national political graffiti campaign in America. I'm intending to do another 20 cities over the next year. But I need help. I love to see other people's handwriting on the sidewalks and be surprised. It's such a simple, beautiful message, and it's helping to create the climate in which the crazy prison monster can be questioned.  Jazz: There's a writer in SF's Mission district named Peter Plate who suggested to me that he never had problems with people in tough neighborhoods because he projected tension while he walked, but I suspect that your strategy is different. In the "Bet with America" you went to major cities and walked through the "worst" neighborhood ghettos to prove that there was nothing to be afraid of… what did you learn from that experience that other people can use every day?  Upski: It's not that there's nothing to be afraid of. For white people, mixed neighborhoods or border neighborhoods are the most likely places you'll get mugged or robbed or fucked with by people who are poor/angry. I just want to counteract two myths:  Myth # 1) That ghetto neighborhoods are more dangerous for white people than mixed or border neighborhoods. I recommend for any white person to pick a corner in their city they think is most scary, and to sit there for a day by themselves, and see what happens. You will either be ignored, suspected as a cop, or people will talk to you in either an aggressive or a curious way and then you'll have conversations with people who you would never otherwise meet as people. People may tell you to get the fuck out of there if they're trying to conduct business, or if they sense that you are doing an "experiment" on them rather than simply attempting to become a better human being by connecting with other human beings. But if you speak from your heart, there's a good chance you'll meet some interesting people and have some profound conversations.  Myth #2) That the way to deal with people we are scared of is to put them in prison.  Jazz: No More Prisons talks a lot about self-education, but when I was younger I wouldn't known where to look for it.

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Upski: Read The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn. It's a Bible. My one complaint about it is that it doesn't emphasize how good people can get power without going through school. I think it's really important that good people who hate the system get power so we can actually change it. That means studying the history of strategic social change, studying the lives of people who changed history recently, understanding business and organizational systems, studying organizing, networking, apprenticing, career development.  Jazz: Who are some of your current mentors?  Upski: Tracy Gary who I mention briefly has helped to start dozens of foundations and organizations to change the world. Another woman is Ruth Ann Harnisch who used to be a TV Anchor and newspaper columnist. Lisa Sullivan from LISTEN Inc in DC where I used to work. My friend Easter is quite a mentor. Sander has been a mentor in grassroots publishing. But to be honest, I'm a hypocrite. I've spent so much time doing this book stuff and building my own organizations that I haven't had time to gather many mentors or feed and water them. That's what I crave most. This summer I am making more time for that.  Jazz: My grandparents live in a gated senior citizen community, and I suggested to them that it was reprehensibe not to have children running around and she said, "We've been through all that." I know that she experiences the world through the TV window, and is afraid of the crime and violence that sells soap and soup there. Why do you think America is locking up its citizens in gated communities and prisons?  Upski: We hate ourselves so we're quick to assume the worst in other people.  Jazz: What is it about hip-hop that inspires you?  Upski: The candor. The speaking from the heart. The fun. The pain. The music compels me to dance. The way art and politcs are mixed. Dead Prez, Mos Def, Common, Boots from the Coup, Lyric and Apani B Fly Emcee, um, most of the artists on the No More Prisons album. The movement of grassroots hip-hop organizing is beginning to mature. That's very exciting. Third Eye Movement in the Bay Area is pioneering it. They held the first sit in of the hip-hop generation in the Hilton Hotel because they funded Prop 21 -that evil juvenile crime bill in Cali. A lot of groups around the country are getting with that shit. Everything that used to be cool has been co-opted, so people in hip-hop and punk who want to live the true essence of the culture are fighting the system, because that's the only thing that can't be stolen from us.  Jazz: You encourage people to organize and even start small community organizations, what kinds of societal changes can individuals or small groups make?  Upski: Whooooo! Huge. Amazing. In the last two months, there have been 35 major actions on college campuses around sweatshops, living wages, lack of democracy, biotech, multinational corporations, and prison privatization. The student movement is blowing the fuck up! Ten schools just last week boycotted their cafeterias because they're owned by Marriott-Sodexho, the biggest investor in CCA (Corrections Corporatrion of America) which is the biggest private prison company. They are flipping out, trying to say they don't invest in prisons. The next ten years are going to be like the sixties as far as major social change and major social repression. A guy in Texas just got 16 years in prison for stealing a Snickers Bar. We're going to stop the prison industry. People should start local groups based on their own interests. Artists against prisons. Lawyers against Prisons. Dot Commers against global pillage. Me! and my friends book discussion group against prisons. Stamp collectors against prisons. Whatever you do, it can be linked to fighting the evils of the world. Not just prisons, but all of them because they're all linked together. People can throw benefits for the movement. There is so much to do!!!  Jazz: Can you briefly describe what seems like an oxymoron to me, "The Cool Rich Kids Movement?"  Upski: Then I must be a walking oxymoron. I am trying to change the world. I have money in my family. There are thousands of us across the country in the same situation. I'm trying to meet the other ones and start conversations about what we can do with our money, connections, investments, and life choices to dramatically change the course of history. Most rich kids who care are either ashamed of their privilege or in denial about it. We work in close partnership with all other social movements. The Cool Rich Kids Movement is just a tongue-in-cheek name we made up to talk about what we're doing. Any cool rich kids out there, you can email me at Billywimsatt@yahoo.com. Or if you have a friend who's a cool rich kid, you can get them a copy of No More Prisons. It's a good conversation starter. I'm getting a lot of people starting to approach me. The problem is, most of us don! 't have our money yet, but it's important for us to talk now so we can plan.

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